The following is the transcript for an interview today on CBC Radio One’s “The Current”, Canada’s most listened to news radio program, with host Matt Galloway and guests professor Cliff Atleo Jr. of the Nuu-Chah-Nulth and Tsimshian Nations, and Ken Wu, the Executive Director of the Endangered Ecosystems Alliance.
An Interview with Patrick Canning, lawyer for the Rainforest Flying Squad over the Fairy Creek blockade, follows.
Interview: Ken Wu and Cliff Atleo Jr.
Matt Galloway
Some members of the Pacheedaht First Nation have been on the front lines of the protest against the logging of Fairy Creek. But they are at odds with the elected Chief and Council. The Council is in favor of some logging on traditional territories, and the band has a private revenue sharing agreement with Teal-Jones. Chief Jeff Jones is asking the protesters to vacate Pacheedaht First Nation territory. In a statement, he says, "from now on, our First Nations will decide what is best for our lands, our waters and our resources for the sustainment and well-being of present and future generations."
Cliff Atleo Jr. is an assistant professor who teaches Indigenous governance and resource relationships at Simon Fraser University. He's also a member of the Nuu-Chah-Nulth and Tsimshian Nations; Ken Wu is Executive Director of Endangered Ecosystems Alliance. Good morning to you both.
Cliff Atleo Jr
Good morning.
Ken Wu
Hello.
Matt Galloway
Cliff Atleo Jr., how difficult, given what I've just said, is it to unravel the question of who speaks for the Indigenous community in this kind of situation?
Cliff Atleo Jr
Yeah, it certainly is a complicated issue. And we saw this with the Wet'suwet'en and the Coastal Gaslink issue as well, as people started to learn that there were different governments. There are hereditary governments and there, you know, are elected Chief and Councils. And historically, of course, the government of Canada and provincial government has only acknowledged the Chief and Council and less so traditional governments. And so it can be difficult to understand who is speaking and for what and on what basis.
Matt Galloway
Do we know who is speaking for what and on what basis? I mean, it's difficult, but how do you how do you unravel that? How should people interpret that?
Cliff Atleo Jr
I guess with a great deal of patience. I mean, there's lots of historical context here. And the colonial imposition of forms of government, by the government of Canada has made it really challenging to understand that and their refusal to acknowledge traditional governments. I'm not privy to the exact details in the Pacheedaht case, but certainly we're, you know, through new stories, we're hearing different voices express different feelings about what should happen.
Matt Galloway
Ken, from your perspective, how receptive is the environmental movement to the message of Chief Jones, who as I mentioned in that statement is asking protesters to leave and says that “our First Nations will decide what's best for our lands”?
Ken Wu
Well, I'm a full believer that the First Nations leadership, not just ethically, but legally - the courts agree - that First Nations’ consent is vital for any major land use changes, including for protected areas. The only way to get there, to actually protect old-growth forests across British Columbia, is if First Nations consent and are interested in protecting these old-growth forests. And if they're not, then those areas will not get protected. So the vital thing is that the provincial government - it's not about the federal government, primarily, the province is in control of provincial forestry policy and the implementation of the Old-Growth Strategic Review Panel's recommendations - they've got to put the money up themselves. That's the main thing is that First Nations have revenue sharing agreements, actual tenures, joint ventures, employment agreements, all across the board across most of British Columbia. The only way to save old-growth is if the province takes their responsibility and puts up hundreds of millions of dollars to help finance a sustainable economic alternative for First Nations, like the federal government has. Not just $50 million, but they've put up hundreds of millions now for the expansion of protected areas in British Columbia, including in old-growth, and BC has got to do the same.
Matt Galloway
I want to talk about what that might look like in a moment. But first, let's talk about just briefly, the area itself. I mean, the logging company, Teal-Jones, sent us a statement about its activities at Fairy Creek. The statement says "to this day, most harvesting in the area is in second-growth, we harvest some old-growth as well, as it has unique characteristics needed for some value-added products. It is a myth that old-growth in the area is at risk." Ken Wu, is it a myth that old-growth in that area is at risk?
Ken Wu
This is complete bunk, and this has been going on for decades. Even the previous premier Gordon Campbell had said, or a couple of premiers ago, had said that there's more old-growth today than there was 100 years ago. And this keeps on going through spin. What there is, is that you have a lot of lower-productivity old-growth across a lot of landscapes, higher elevations and boggy landscapes. But in the TFL 46, in that whole Pacheedaht, Teal Jones region, it has some of the greatest ancient forests that have ever existed. In the Walbran Valley, on Edinburgh Mountain, Eden Grove, the Fairy Creek area, San Juan Valley. And they've shaved off most of the valley bottoms. So you largely have a few patches of valley bottoms, some valleys like Fairy Creek, and then you have mid-elevation slopes left. Across the province, they've logged off 92% of the high-productivity old-growth, the best stuff that you think about as “old-growth”. Only 3% - these are the facts - only 3% of the remaining old-growth is the high-productivity classic forest giants. Most of it is subalpine scrub and boggy landscapes and small trees growing on steep rock faces. So the loophole of government is always to cite the statistics of all the scrubby old-growth, small old-growth - to save that and to log the big trees. And this is the kind of spin going on with Teal-Jones. And it is true, there's a lot of second-growth, and we're saying log that sustainably, but save the last tracts of old-growth.
Matt Galloway
Cliff Atleo Jr, there are many First Nations leaders who are favoring, as we've said, some sort of plan for logging, they say that it's essential for the financial well-being of their communities that these are jobs that people depend upon. It's easy to reduce this down to a trade-off between economic development and environmental conservation. But if you do that, what do you miss out on?
Cliff Atleo Jr
Yeah, I mean, the thing to remember from my perspective is that, you know, many Indigenous communities are struggling economically, and there's no secret as to why they were. So there has been a lot of stuff in the news recently about the Nuu-cha-Nulth fisheries case, for example. And in 2002, they launched the case, we had six fishing boats left in our fleet, down from a height of 200, you know, if you go back into the ‘80s, or ‘70s. So you had communities on the West Coast that have lost almost all of their livelihoods, to a point where they are now between the proverbial rock and a hard place and looking for economic opportunities for their community to work. And so I think that's an important context to remember in this case. I wouldn't say that logging needs to happen, per se. It is a part of it. But I think, you know, I agree with Ken in the sense that the governments, both provincial and federal, really need to step up to the plate and recognize that people do need jobs, people do need to put food on the table, and how that happens doesn't specifically have to, you know, endanger old-growth forests.
Matt Galloway
Ken, tell me a bit more about this. The Premier of British Columbia says that this issue is intractable. What specifically would you like to see from his government, but also the federal government, to help resolve this? You've hinted at this already, but tell me more about that.
Ken Wu
The fundamental engine or driver to solve the old-growth issue is provincial funding. The federal government can earmark a bigger subset of the already allocated hundreds of millions, that's true. They've allocated $50 million, they can allocate a bigger subset, but they have put up $hundreds of millions [for new BC protected areas]. But the province primarily is the one that has got to put up at least $300 million plus. We need about $600 million in total to get the deferrals and the protection in place for the most at-risk old-growth types identified by the Science Advisory Panel.
Matt Galloway
So what does that look like? Are you buying the land? Are you compensating Teal-Jones? Where does that money go?
Ken Wu
Okay, well, the $600 million I'm referring to is, essentially, Indigenous Guardians and conservation financing. Conservation financing is to help First Nations establish sustainable economic alternatives like clean energy, tourism, sustainable seafoods, value-added, second-growth forestry in the whole mix - a variety of things that have been done in the Great Bear Rainforest, that's been moving forward in Clayoquot Sound - Cliff will know all about that - and in Haida Gwaii as well. Anywhere there's been protection of old-growth forests, First Nations have always moved to save old-growth when they've been given an economic alternative. It is ultimately the choice of the First Nations leadership. But the province is primarily responsible. They’ve got to get those deferrals in place, and they've got to get the funding in order to help finance the sustainable economic alternatives. At the same time, they've got to support forestry-dependent communities and forestry workers by incentives and regulations to develop the value-added, second-growth forest industry. And there's probably, in some places for Timber Licences, and for other aspects, they may have to pay some compensation for the large licencees in those areas. But the prime thing is it's on John Horgan’s shoulders to finance that solution right now. The federal government stepped forward. They've got to do it. Provincial forest policy is in the purview of the provincial government.
Matt Galloway
Cliff Atleo, are you optimistic, again - Ken suggested other areas where perhaps we've seen this already - are you optimistic that when you're taking a look at Fairy Creek, that there is the possibility of a resolution here?
Cliff Atleo Jr
I think I have to be a little bit. You know, one of the things that seems to play out in these situations is the development of political will. I heard you say that this was Canada's largest act of civil disobedience and up until last year, it would have been Clayoquot Sound that we were talking about. So there's a certain level of momentum that I think governments can't ignore. And then this ruling regarding the injunction - I definitely agree that that is also quite unprecedented. Normally we think of the courts and the police from an Indigenous perspective as thugs for big business, and to have that pause a bit or to have that, you know, a second thought, I think is really significant. And I think we need to seize that opportunity from a political perspective and begin, as [Patrick] Canning said, the negotiations.
Matt Galloway
Just in the last minute or so that we have I mean, what do you think is at stake, Cliff? I mean, there's a lot that's at play right now. And emotions have been high over the course of the summer, certainly, but right now as well, what's at stake?
Cliff Atleo Jr.
I mean, for me, it's also like, because I'm a professor, I tend to think about these things in a larger historical and economic context. This last summer was one of the worst we've seen for forest fires, and as they think the realities of climate change, it really hit home for a lot of people. That heat wave, you know, a weekend was devastating for hundreds of people that we lost in this province. And so I think, or I'm hopeful, that some of these crises will compel us to be more creative, to be more long-term in our thinking, both politically and economically.
Matt Galloway
Ken, just very briefly, for you, what's at stake here?
Ken Wu
These are the grandest forests on the planet with some of the biggest and oldest living organisms that have ever existed and the most endangered ecosystems. So what's at stake are endangered species, culture, tourism, the climate, clean water, wild salmon - so much is at stake here and Horgan can get this done - if he chooses to.
Matt Galloway
Glad to speak with you both about this. It's complicated, but you have done great work in walking us through it. Cliff Atleo Jr. is a Tsimshian and Nuu-Chah-Nulth scholar and assistant professor at Simon Fraser University School of Resource and Environmental Management. Ken Wu is the Executive Director of the Endangered Ecosystems Alliance.
Interview: Patrick Canning
Matt Galloway
More than 1100 people have been arrested at the Fairy Creek blockade on southern Vancouver Island. Activists have been living near a logging area on First Nations land for over 4 months trying to protect old-growth trees. It is one of the last unlogged old-growth valleys outside of BC’s park system, and it contains some of the biggest yellow cedars in the world.
Protestors say they’re there to stay, after a BC Supreme Court ruling this week denied an application by the logging company Teal Jones to extend an injunction against the camp.
Patrick Canning is one of the lawyers representing protesters. Patrick, good morning.
Patrick Canning
Good morning.
Matt Galloway
From your perspective, why is this a significant decision?
Patrick Canning
Well, it's kind of a landmark decision in this line of case law. As everyone in Canada will know these battles over old-growth logging have been going on out here for over 30 years. And it's one of the few cases where a company seeking an injunction has been refused that by the court.
Matt Galloway
A BC Supreme Court Judge Douglas Thompson said that the RCMP behavior at the protest was the reason that he wouldn't extend the injunction. What has that police behavior done on the line there, to the mood in and around those blockades?
Patrick Canning
Well, it's certainly soured the mood. I mean, people level the blame in both directions in that sense. And I know, there's been some reporting on the escalation of both RCMP and protester tactics over the years. But, you know, the court noted that the protesters have adhered to a policy of peaceful protests, non-violence, and also, that they were intelligent, good citizens, largely that were interested in the common good. So to have them deal with what they view as sort of extreme enforcement tactics... It's definitely changed things on the ground.
Matt Galloway
And so what does the decision practically mean for what protesters can and cannot do?
Patrick Canning
Well, that largely depends on what happens next. And what has already happened next, sort of, since the ruling came down, it could have changed things not that much if the RCMP had chosen to stick around and enforce what we think of as the regular criminal law like charges like mischief or criminal code charges for obstructing a public road. But instead, the RCMP chose to pack it up and leave the area. And, because of that, realistically, if people choose to stand on the road, I guess for now, they're not going to be arrested for that. So Teal-Jones kind of, apparently, as was heard, you know, in the quote at the beginning, removed some gates and dug trenches in roads to stop people from accessing the area.
Matt Galloway
What are you hearing from your clients? I mean, people are pretty dug in. We heard in that little clip, one of the protesters saying that she's not going anywhere. So what are you hearing from your clients, including the Pacheedaht First Nation Elder Bill Jones, about what their plans are?
Patrick Canning
Well, Bill's been really clear from the get go and his message has never wavered, that he's also not going anywhere until these trees are protected. You know, Bill is not just an elder, but he's h elderly, and this is a stand that he's decided to make - is that these trees are his inheritance that he wants to be able to leave to the next generations. And he doesn't intend to stop until they're protected.
Matt Galloway
And so when you say "until these trees are protected," I mean, Teal-Jones says that it's going to appeal the decision that ends the injunction against the blockades. What has to happen now, to resolve this?
Patrick Canning
Well, I mean, ultimately, it's not going to be resolved in the courts. Because, you know, we can go back and forth, and they can come back and get an injunction and then we can get it stopped again, and this could go on for years. Ultimately, there needs to be some sort of negotiated solution. And we have in court a couple of weeks ago, we bought, we served on the other parties a notice to mediate, which triggers a formal mediation process among the parties, and which includes the province, since we added the province as a party. And, and we'll see where that goes. I'm hopeful that that can go somewhere. And ultimately, you know, it has to benefit the First Nation and the Pacheedaht people as well.
Matt Galloway
But ultimately, that's going to raise, I mean, if people say they aren't going anywhere, and Bill Jones says that he's not going anywhere until those trees are protected, that means that there can't be any logging there?
Patrick Canning
From Bill Jones’ perspective?
Matt Galloway
Yeah. And from your clients’ perspective.
Patrick Canning
That's right. And I mean, we saw recent reporting on CBC and elsewhere that the federal government just announced the $50 million Old-Growth Protection Fund. Now, John Horgan criticized that as not being enough, which, I agree it would be great if it were more but it's enough to get started and it's enough to do something here. And, that's the kind of solution that we need.
Matt Galloway
Patrick, good to speak with you. Thank you. Patrick Canning is a lawyer on Vancouver Island specializing in environmental and First Nations law. As we mentioned, the logging company Teal-Jones is planning an appeal to the decision that ends the injunction against blockades.